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 Post subject: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Hey guys I need some help installing Windows Vista (from disk) on an external drive which is being used with my Mac Book Pro.

The external drive is partitioned and is mainly a Mac based external but I've already created a Windows based partition Fat DOS I think it was.

I've tried running bootcamp but it won't let me do the install because it thinks I want to install it on my internal drive and it says I don't have enough room to even download the needed Windows support files.

I didn't even know there are support files that I'd need to download.

How large are those support files?

So, can anyone help me install Vista on an external drive so I can run it using my Mac Book Pro?

UPDATE:
After some googling and a failed install attempt on my external drive I've discovered that apparently Windows Vista does not support external USB or firewire installations meaning it can't be run from an external drive!

I'll say it again, I hate Windows and Microsuck.

I wonder if I need to cancel my Windows 8 order because it may not be able to be installed on an external drive?

F.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:14 am
Posts: 37
I don't think it is possible to install any modern Windows system on an external drive.
I remember it could be done with XP, but required some serious tweaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
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gre wrote:
I don't think it is possible to install any modern Windows system on an external drive.
I remember it could be done with XP, but required some serious tweaking.


Hey thanks for the hit back so soon.


I just cancelled my Windows 8 order I had placed with Amazon.


How incredibly stupid Windows doesn't work from an external drive.

I did find this but it's for USB drive, not sure if it will work with a normal USB external drive and right now I don't care anymore. I'm disgusted with Windows already. It doesn't sound like I'd be able to get that working from my Mac anyway.

http://tweaks.com/windows/52279/how-to- ... usb-drive/


Ok now I'm off to try to make room for Vista on my MBP's internal drive or I'll probably be buying a new internal for it so I can slap on Vista.

The install disk is actually for an eMachine. I hope it works on my MBP. I wonder if Microsuck is so lame they made custom install disks for certain machines. When I booted from it in my MBP the install process was working until I selected the external drive and gave Vista install a meltdown.

Can anyone tell me how much space Vista and the Mac support files require?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Location: USA, CA
J.Sh3ppard,
why not install https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads (free) on your MBP
Easy and fast setup, and when done with using windows you can just delete the virtual file

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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:41 am 
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Posts: 702
Iwas going to suggest the same thing with VMWare Fusion, although that isnt free.
Using a Virtual machine to run Windows on a Mac makes a lot more sense than BootCamp.

- The disc image is easy to back up and snapshot (which is pretty hard on a Windows partition)
- You can have OSX and Windows running at the same time
- If you buy the OEM version of Windows, and install it on a BootCamp partition, youre stuck there.. it(apparently) cant be moved to another machine, or re-installed. Whereas if you use the same disc inside a VM, the VM can go with you when you upgrade or replace your Mac.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:16 am
Posts: 103
Location: Den Haag, Netherlands
I use Parallels Desktop 8 for Mac ($79.99) and I'm very satisfied using Parallels.

Paul Lefebvre has recently pointed me on a blog post he made about Remote Debugging.
Now I can develop/test/debug my applications in (Mac) OS X and test/debug with Remote Debugging in Windows. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Hi guys, thanks for replying.

My goal is to get Windows Vista running without having to spend extra money on a new internal drive and data copying (from the old drive).

I agree virtualizing sounds better but my situation is my current internal hard drive doesn't have the room to install Vista on. I might be able to move gigs off and then install Vista on it but I need every gig for my Mac OS so how would I reclaim those from the Windows partition I'd have to create to do the Windows install? I've read Vista needs 15 gigs to do the install but after it's done it only uses about 4 gigs.

How do I reclaim those 8-9 gigs so they are wasted on a Windows partition that I needed for the install?

Right now I have 12.5 gigs free on my MBP hard drive.

In the meantime I came up with plan B but I'm not sure if it would work :

I have a large external drive with over 500 gigs free. This is where I want to install Vista. Trying the install while booted from my MBP internal doesn't work because Windows doesn't support USB/external installs.

BUT what if I install OS X on the external and boot from it, then try to install Windows on the same external? Would Windows still not install on the external even though I booted from it?

What do you guys thinks?


If plan B fails then can you guys tell me your guesses on how much hard drive space I'd need on my internal drive to install virtual box and Vista and how I do it?

Do I need to create a Windows based partition at least 15 gigs in size when using virtual box or does it not require a Windows partition?

How do I shrink that Windows partition after the install is done and get those gigs back to my Mac partition?

In the end I may just have to buy a new internal that's much larger. If that's the case, then I'd also have to clone my current drive to the new drive which requires some hardware as the new drive won't operate without it.

Thanks for your input guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
UPDATE :

Installing OS X on the external then booting from it and trying to install Windows on the external still failed.

I've cleared gigs off my internal drive and am now trying virtual box.

Before I install virtual box, how can I be sure it isn't loaded with malware?


I have a question :


After I install virtual box and Windows on my Boot drive, can I then move the Virtual box and Windows to my external drive and boot from Windows on the external?


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:56 am
Posts: 702
Quote:
Installing OS X on the external then booting from it and trying to install Windows on the external still failed.
I've cleared gigs off my internal drive and am now trying virtual box.
Before I install virtual box, how can I be sure it isn't loaded with malware?


Stop.

Virtual Box, Parallels, and VMWare all occupy much less than 'gigs' on your OSX drive.
Step 1: install one of them.

Now you have a program.
The program creates and opens documents, just like Word, PhotoShop, or any other app you have.
The documents are large.. gigabytes.. because they hold an image of an entire partition within them.
You create one of these documents (Virtual Discs) on the EXTERNAL drive.

Then you make the virtualiser 'boot up the file'
(You dont 'boot from the disc'.. everything is done 'through' the virtualiser app)

Quote:
After I install virtual box and Windows on my Boot drive, can I then move the Virtual box and Windows to my external drive and boot from Windows on the external?


Windows doesnt go on your Boot drive.
DOnt try to make room for it there.
The app goes on the boot drive, and is small. The virtual drive / doucment goes on the external drive.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Thanks for clarifying things kermit :)

I'm using Virtual Box.

I'm in the process of creating my virtual drive on my external hd now.

So far I don't see how I install Windows Vista though but I guess it will give me instructions on how I do it.

I'll post back with how it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:20 am 
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:56 am
Posts: 702
From their user docs, in case it helps;

Quote:
Starting a new VM for the first timeWhen a VM gets started for the first time, another wizard -- the "First Start Wizard" -- will pop up to help you select an installation medium. Since the VM is created empty, it would otherwise behave just like a real computer with no operating system installed: it will do nothing and display an error message that no bootable operating system was found.

For this reason, the wizard helps you select a medium to install an operating system from.

If you have physical CD or DVD media from which you want to install your guest operating system (e.g. in the case of a Windows installation CD or DVD), put the media into your host's CD or DVD drive.

Then, in the wizard's drop-down list of installation media, select "Host drive" with the correct drive letter (or, in the case of a Linux host, device file). This will allow your VM to access the media in your host drive, and you can proceed to install from there.

If you have downloaded installation media from the Internet in the form of an ISO image file (most probably in the case of a Linux distribution), you would normally burn this file to an empty CD or DVD and proceed as just described. With VirtualBox however, you can skip this step and mount the ISO file directly. VirtualBox will then present this file as a CD or DVD-ROM drive to the virtual machine, much like it does with virtual hard disk images.

For this case, the wizard's drop-down list contains a list of installation media that were previously used with VirtualBox.

If your medium is not in the list (especially if you are using VirtualBox for the first time), select the small folder icon next to the drop-down list to bring up a standard file dialog, with which you can pick the image file on your host disks.

In both cases, after making the choices in the wizard, you will be able to install your operating system.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:34 am 
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J.Sh3ppard wrote:
So far I don't see how I install Windows Vista though but I guess it will give me instructions on how I do it.
I'm more the VMWare/Parallels/HyperV user but they all work very similarly. Once Virtual Box is installed you should get an option to create a new Virtual machine suitable for the OS you want to run. You will need to specify a location for the Virtual Hard Disk, which would be on your external HD. Your external (USB) disk should be formatted in HPFS (not FAT32 or NTFS).

The new virtual machine behaves like a PC fitted with an unformatted hard disk. It will run through the BIOS POST and look for a boot loader, and hopefully fall back to the CD-Rom where you have the Vista install disk loaded. Then follow the Vista install as usual and don't get too scared when it tells you it's about to format the disk and delete any existing data. Vista is referring to the already blank virtual hard disk file, rather than any physical device.

If you are using an OEM install disk you may have problems completing the Vista install. The OEM EULA does not allow installation on Virtual hardware, or any hardware other than the disk was supplied with. OEM's who build their own install media, don't always include essential drivers for hardware they do not sell. If you do manage to install, you may find you can not activate it, which leaves you in a fully functional demo mode, until Vista refuses to allow you to log in in 30 days time.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
First let me say thanks to :
gre, briman, kermit, paulsondervan, and msssltd for giving me a hand here.
It's a confusing process for a first timer like myself and your input has helped me :)

UPDATE :

Ok I've now got Vista 30 day demo installed and running. Yay.

BUT I'm having some issues:

My first attempt I was using my MBP screen and an external monitor and the virtual Vista box didn't play nice with this. I had multiple issues :

a. Very slow mouse movement issues but only during a specific program and only sometimes - I have no idea why. This program I absolutely need to run.
b. Screen refresh issues. Sometimes the screen would not redraw when switching apps, or whatever.
c. The monitor screen resolutions offered in Windows don't seem to match my external monitor.
I've tried different settings in the Virtual box settings like 2nd monitor support, changing ram (btw the max allowed seems to be around 2.5 gigs otherwise it doesn't work), etc.
I've also tried changing the windows screen settings and so far using an external monitor isn't so good.

That led me to reboot my MBP with the lid closed using the external monitor as my only monitor.
I'm having better results but still some issues :

Again the Virtual box Windows doesn't play nice with my monitor's settings so Windows isn't shown correctly. For example, in 'full screen' mode I am not able to see or access the things on the bottom 'menu bar' like the start button, or app icons, etc.

Does anyone have ideas / experience on how I can get Virtual Box Windows to correctly fit in my monitor?

Switching to 'Scale mode' makes the mouse go all slow (again) and isn't acceptable.
Scale mode puts the OS in it's own Mac window and everything seems to fit but since the mouse is so slow I can't use it. Way way way too slow :(

Those issues made me try with bootcamp again and again it failed. Apparently Apple has a bootcamp bug for the version that I had. I get a message of something like
" The startup disk does not have enough space to be partioned. You must have at least 10 GB of free space available. "

I found this message very interesting because I have 24 gigs free now on my boot drive.

So, I tried running software update and found out there is no updating bootcamp via software update. That led me on a search where I found something on Apple's site saying I need to download Bootcamp 3.1 to update it. I downloaded Bootcamp 3.1 and see it's an .exe file! What?
Apparently I have no idea how to update Bootcamp or use it in anyway because it doesn't do anything. It just says it can't do the install because I need 10 gigs… It also doesn't let me use the DVD option. I get the same message.
Bootcamp is bootstupid.

Bootcamp has been the most frustrating experience Apple has given me. On my Snow Leopard MBP it just doesn't work or do anything with apparently no way to update it. It also sounds like other versions of bootcamp and OS X like 10.8 may not run Vista?

Another problem is, I can't use Disk utility to create the partition because Vista apparently is supposed to be NTFS and I don't have that option in Disk utility. I'm also assuming that the needed support files wouldn't be installed either but I've read I can use the OS X install disk or download them online.

I was doing this stuff late last night so I may spend more time today but it's being a real pain.

I may order a new larger hard drive next week and give it a go again IF my serial for Vista works and the 30 day demo is unlocked. I don't know if they lock the serial to other hardware. I'm assuming if they do I can just recreate virtual drives and do the install every 30 days until I buy Windows 8 and get that working?


Does it soundl like the mouse slow down has anything to do with me running the virtual Vista box on an external usb hard drive or is it that my 2.26ghz MBP with 8 gigs of ram is too slow?

In the meanwhile maybe you guys can continue to offer advice with those issues if you've got any ?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:56 am
Posts: 702
Quote:
Does it soundl like the mouse slow down has anything to do with me running the virtual Vista box on an external usb hard drive or is it that my 2.26ghz MBP with 8 gigs of ram is too slow?


Your machine is fine.
I myself have a 2.4 machine with 4Gb RAM and it runs Vista, 7 , or 8 happily in a window using VMWare Fusion at a happy speed.

it MAY be due to running on the external drive.
Check the size of the virtual drive you created.
If it is small enough, bring it over to your main drive, and run it from there.. maybe the USB port is throttling it.
I only usually allow 1Gb of memory for a Virtual machine. Vista should run well enough with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help installing Windows Vista on Mac external drive
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:21 am 
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Location: Emsworth, UK
J.Sh3ppard wrote:
That led me on a search where I found something on Apple's site saying I need to download Bootcamp 3.1 to update it. I downloaded Bootcamp 3.1 and see it's an .exe file! What?
That's the Windows drivers for the Apple hardware.

Quote:
Bootcamp has been the most frustrating experience Apple has given me. On my Snow Leopard MBP it just doesn't work or do anything with apparently no way to update it. It also sounds like other versions of bootcamp and OS X like 10.8 may not run Vista?
The OSX side of Bootcamp doesn't do much more than re-partition your hard drive. It adds a fancy boot manager which allows you to select the partition to boot from too, but you can do without the boot manager using (IIRC) alt+c during boot up. On the Windows side, Bootcamp is mainly the hardware drivers, a keyboard map and another boot manager. There really isn't much to boot camp. The frustrations are born of Windows never having been designed to boot and install on Apple's hardware.

Quote:
Another problem is, I can't use Disk utility to create the partition because Vista apparently is supposed to be NTFS and I don't have that option in Disk utility.
Create an unformatted partition. Vista will format it as NTFS at install time.

Quote:
I may order a new larger hard drive next week and give it a go again IF my serial for Vista works and the 30 day demo is unlocked.
My honest advice is buy VMWare or Parallels instead. They are both extremely capable, well polished products, unlike Virtual Box. And, if you are going to run in demo mode, run Win7 not Vista. Vista is bloated and rather slow but otherwise nearly identical.

Quote:
Does it soundl like the mouse slow down has anything to do with me running the virtual Vista box on an external usb hard drive or is it that my 2.26ghz MBP with 8 gigs of ram is too slow?
Nope, it sounds like you are running Virtual Box. VMWare and Parallels both use their own special drivers to get around the problems you are having with the mouse and multiple monitors.

Quote:
In the meanwhile maybe you guys can continue to offer advice with those issues if you've got any ?
Apologies for the delayed response. Been distracted by project work.

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