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Hi

I am wondering how many people use Valentia Database and what they like or dislike about the product. I am just trying to get a feel for the product in general. Would it be suitable to for use in SAAS environment with dozens of users accessing hundreds of table in different databases. It claims to be fast but is that the case in general or only under particular scenarios. Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks
Simon

Run some tests and you'll find that it's faster than anything else out there. I've compared it to MySQL, Postgres, and SQLite, and in every case, it's faster. And you won't find a more responsive developer than Ruslan.

Also the price is incredible.

You can have full functionality for free on a single db or purchase a royalty free option to deploy as many db's as you want for $599.

I am testing a few things for a potential project and it is definitely fast across all tests I have tried so far. I have a long way to go but I am 90% sure I will use Valentina.

It has been a long time since contacted Ruslan but I do remember he was very responsive to my questions. At the time I was experimenting using Valentina with Visual FoxPro because I need a database that could handle tables larger than 2gigs. However, I have never used Valentina in SAAS environment with dozens of users accessing different applications and databases under via terminal services. Running some realistic tests would require quite a bit of development so that is why I am looking for feedback from current users before pursing the development.

Simon

Hi.

I'm curious what testing conditions did you perform your comparisons?

Did you test using REAL Studio / XOJO and the pg4sql plugin for Postgresql vs Valentina? It is said that the pg4sql REAL Studio plugin is much faster than the built in REAL Studio database plugin (said to be slow) for Postgresql.

http://aliacta.com/

Did you test using php and ruby with Valentina against MYSQL and Postgresql?

Could you please share your testing specifications and results?

I'm sure many developers would appreciate it.




Hi.
Are you sure you're talking about Valentina and not CubeSQL?

I don't know much about either database product so maybe I am wrong but I took a quick look at Valentina's server prices and for unlimited connections it's $1,499.99 with a renewal price of $899.99.
http://www.valentina-db.com/en/store

CubeSQL has unlimited for $599.00
http://www.sqlabs.com/cubesql_pricing.php


If Valentia or CubeSQL are significantly faster the MYSQL and Postgresql that would be great but I've yet to see any proof so hopefully some will be given.

One thing I do know about CubeSQL that I like very much is that it's database is a single file making backups and sharing the database very easy.

Not sure if anyone is interested or not but CubeSQL just came out with a good offer:

http://www.sqlabs.com/cubesql_special_offer.php

I did tests a while ago so I'll leave it to others to test again. However, I can tell you that I used the CLI to run tests.

Hi, let me give more details on prices then, because you have compare two prices only.
So lets look on URLs you provide

1)

* CubeSQL -- Up to 3 concurrent connections: FREE <<< DB Server
* Valentina Server -- 5 connections FREE. <<< DB Server + Report Server + Stored Procedures + ...

Where is better, J.Sh3ppard ?


2) yes, UNLIMITED version of VSERVER cost bigger, but see how much more it provides actually.

Options (1 - 2) was about price PER COPY.
For developers exists special License in both cases:

3)

* CubeSQL
Up to 3 concurrent connections: $999/year.
Up to 5 concurrent connections: $3000/year.

* Valentina Embedded Server (VDN)
Up to 5 connections $599 <<< again -- This includes DB + REPORT server.


J.Sh3ppard, so to get license TO DEPLOY any number of Valentina Embedded Servers with 5 connections with your app, you need only 599$, for CubeSQL you need to pay 3000$ for same.

And again, and again

Valentina Server provides much more features:
as on db engine level, e.g. you have SQL command to do recursive queries, ENUM types with localization, ...
so on server level, you have stored procedures, report server, ...

Additionally, with Valentina Server (as well as with mySQL, PostgreSQL and SQLite local) works are Valentina Studio, which has FREE edition and PRO edition (first of all for Valentina Reports).

Compare self.

Aha, and speed ... the next post - about it.

mySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite (-> cubeSQL), MS SQL, ... -- all these are ROW-based databases.
Valentina DB -- is columnar database.

* Usually columnar DBs costs tens of thousands $$$, price Depends on number of Cores in computer CPU, ...
* Columnar DB keep fields in separate columns. This make huge difference. And problem not in which adaptor for REALstudio is used.

* btw, Some developers have MYTH in head that columnar DB will be much slower on e.g inserts, update.
Kems benches (I have yet his letter) did show (on that time - 2011) mySQL - 3000 inserts, Valentina 580 000 in one second into one field table.
yep, Valentina did work not via SQL but via API

* Yes, Valentina is not only SQL DB, but also non-SQL from the born in 1998 year.
So developer always have choices with Valentina

* I will show only one example that explain why Valentina can be faster in your tasks. In relatinoal dbs we keep entities in few tables often. Later we do joins. Often we do not need all fields from joined tables.

Now lets image that you have Table with 10 fields, some of them integer, some VarChars, some even TEXT.
Let average record size is 500 bytes.
Let you have million records. -- 500 MB.

And this is only one table from 3 or 5 to be joined.
Let I want to SELECT only f1 field from this table for all records, which is integer.

All above row-DBs need in this case load from disk 500Mb, even worse, usually x2 because rows stored on pages, which are half-empty. So 1GB. On normal modern HDD (100MB/s) this takes 10 seconds.

Valentina DB, in contrast, need load only 4 bytes * 1M = 4Mb ---> 0.04 second...
Difference 250 times.

* Note, that usually it is absolutely transparent for developer/user which db he work with.

* columnar format is far not the only magic thing in Valentina, which affects the performance. Exists others. And together they multiply result.

* For example, Valentina offers yet unique things as Links: ObjectPtr and BinaryLink additionally to FK. BinaryLink is able make MM link between T1 and T2 without additional MM table. BinaryLink is able do join few times faster comparing to MM table with FKs ...

* And so on, and so on....


* USER TESTIMONIALS -- http://www.valentina-db.com/en/testimonials.
Here you can find some response about speed of Valentina.

* Note Valentina logo btw ... we not try play with mechanical cars. We jumping to a new level: jet-movement

* And we still improve Valentina of course. After so many years just yesterday seems I have catch idea how its possible improve speed of key-search in the index yet in x10 times.... Going to implement this asap

Hi Ruslan. Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread.

I will share with you my opinion which is also how many other developers may view this situation.
I suspect some people here to disagree because they like disagreeing.



In this example Ruslan you are mentioning very limited connections which are not very useful to developers. I don't think I have ever needed a multiuser database with only 5 connections be it for me or clients. In those cases where only a 3 to 5 concurrent connection would be needed the potential speed benefits of Valentina or CubeSQL if there are any over other free databases that offer unlimited connections are not probably important and maybe nonexistent.

Another reason to avoid these free limited connection databases you've shown is because they do not scale for free. When a developer's or customer's database needs grows both of the above mentioned products cost money to scale to fit the needs. Postgresql, MariaDB, and even MYSQL under certain conditions are all free and scale for free since they are for unlimited connections. This means not only will the current database requirements of a 5 connection be met but also the future database needs of more than 5 connections will be met without having to do any changes or pay money. This is very important to understand.

For those reasons it's smarter to choose an unlimited free database like Postgresql from the beginning which has been proven over time to be fast and reliable and always free rather than use a very limited connetion free database that costs money to scale up.




Let me share with you my opinion of why of your unlimited Valentina pricing of $1,499.00 is very expensive.

When doing jobs for clients or for my own businesses every dollar is account for.
If it's a client job, then extra expenses reduce my profit. That means I'm working for less money and I don't like that. It also means I may be charging my clients more than they should be charged because of the availability of lower cost solutions that meet their needs. I and they don't like that which can also lose me business.

When it's my own business needs the extra expenses reduce my profits and increase my risk; an even more unfavorable situation to me personally.

It sounds like you are mostly basing your $1,499.00 price tag for Valentina from what other more expensive over priced columnar database products cost and also Valentina's claimed speed benefits over the lower cost or free database competition.

I think the mistake you are making is you aren't thinking like a developer or customer searching for a database solution.
This point is a critical. You are not considering that most developers and customers could actually exceed their performance needs for less money and this is how smart developers and customers think. The masses of developers and customers needing database solutions don't care if other competing columnar databases cost many thousands of dollars because they aren't considering purchasing those solutions as they are over priced and not needed. I don't care if a Bugatti Veyron costs over $2,400,000.00 because I'm never going to buy one. That also doesn't mean a $500,000.00 Ferrari is a good deal either It's really not. They are over priced luxury toys.

Some people do purchase overpriced items and they may feel those are great prices for the performance but the truth is there are much lower cost ways to get the same or better performance than overpaying for such vehicles.


For a lot less money I and other experienced developers can probably get the same or better performance with consumer grade hardware using Postgresql. Certainly we can obtain good enough performance to meet most if not all of our databasing needs.

Below I list different options which should yield very good database performance for the same cost as Valentina (Option 1) and a lower cost than Valentina (Option 2).

The below options I've listed are my first thoughts. I have not spent a lot of time researching the listed solutions because I haven't needed anything beyond Postgresql or MYSQL on standard systems. In the future I may and I might try my suggestions below. If I took time to do more research I could probably find lower prices while still maintining excellent performance.

Depending on budget :

Option 1:
My first choice would be to purchase a new

Mac mini OS X server 2.3Ghz Intel Core i7
16 gigs ram
256 SSD samsung pro 840 hard drive (incredibly fast and reliable)
Postgresql unlimited database (Free)
------------
$1,499 from Apple.

So here for the same price as your Valentina database software only I can purchase a complete server with SSD drive, 16 gigs of ram and use a professional free database (Postgresql) and have amazing performance. Keep in mind the server can also do more than your database software alone so it's value is more than a mere database. For example, it can be used to host multiple online businesses putting every dollar of it's cost to work increasing the chances of making money and having successful businesses.

You can probably save a couple hundred dollars from this price if you purchase and upgrade the ram and SSD separately. I'm not sure if Apple ships with the samsung 840, if not I would purchase it seperately and add it on.


On a smaller budget, my second choice would probably be :
Mac mini desktop client OS - not server edition.
4 gigs ram
128 gig SSD samsung pro 840 hard drive (incredibly fast and reliable) <=$139.99
Unbuntu linux server (free)
Postgresql database (free)
---------------------
Total cost : $739.00.


In this lower cost micro budget Mac mini setup performance would be very good and the savings from not purchasing your Valentina unlimited db would be about +$700.00. and the customer or developer would still end up with their own server which is far more capable than a database.

Additional benefits of having the SSD drive or SSD drives on the server would benefit the entire online business, not only databasing.

To use Valentina unlimited well you will need a lot of ram and CPU which greatly increases your hosting costs when using a VPS or rented dedicated server.
That is why purchasing your own Mac mini is the best choice. If you don't need much ram or CPU then you also don't need and cannot take advantage of Valentina's speed benefits over other row based databases.

Even smaller budgets could purchase used Mac minis or other lower cost non Mac hardware saving more money if they don't buy the Valentina database.

Your unlimited Valentina database is extremely expensive for what it is and I just showed you how I can probably rival it's performance for less money and end up with more important business tools.


The estimated Valentina price of $1,499.00 does not include the needed hardware to appropriately run the unlimited Valentina database server which could be a minimum of $739.00 on top of the $1,499.00 Valentina db cost if Macs are used.

That brings the total Valentina server cost to $2,238.00 vs.
the Mac mini Linux Postgresql cost of $739.00 or the more expensive option of $1,499.00.


Other additional Valentina expenses that are not occuring with Postgresql, MYSQL or probably MariaDB :

If the developer or customer needs to update their Valentina server to a newer version that renewal price is $899.00!

Your Valentina renewal price is more than the option 2 new Mac mini server setup I've listed!
Postgresql upgrade is free.


For the price of one unlimited connections Valentina license we can buy two Mac mini linux servers using SSD drives and still pay the same or less depending on setup (ram, SSD size).

Two new Mac mini Linux SSD Postgresql systems = $739.00 x 2 = $1478.00.
One Valentina database software with unlimited license and no hardware to run it = $1,499.00

I doubt Valentina on normal hard drives is significantly faster than dual Mac mini's running 2 Postgresql databases on SSD or ram drives but please test it and let us know.

The above additional cost also doesn't include your $50 per incident Valentina support as listed on your website.

Postgresql has a lot of great free support because of it's large userbase and if customers want to they can pay to get professional support.

Valentina may be an incredible database with fantastic performance but the cost of Valentina doesn't make sense to me



Ruslan I am not a database professional as you are so please correct me here if I am wrong :


Some may be thinking what about running Valentina on an SSD drive to further increase performance?

That is a possible option but most of the time it's probably not needed because Postgresql on SSD will handle most needs. Even without SSD Postgresql is said to handle thousands of concurrent connections.

I am also not sure the gains for Valentina on an SSD would be as significant when compared to the gains of a row based database (Postgresql) because of Valentina's columnar design.

It is my understanding that the main or one of the main slow downs in a row based databases is the hard drive seek time. This is why when SSD's or a ram database is used it greatly increases row based database performance. This means those purchases (ssd or extra ram) are worthwhile on these systems. From my understanding this is not true with columnar databases. There still maybe speed gains but they are not as drastic.

Ruslan please let me know if that is true or not?


It would be a good idea for you to provide speed tests instead of saying some customer said this or that. Preferably speed tests which potential customers can download and try on our own machines


You also failed to mention CubeSQL right now is only $99.00 for the unlimited connections version.

Hi J.Sh3ppard,

you have over-jumped me by length
I have made brief reading and the most strange thing that comes into eyes.

1) You say -- I am not database expert, then why you watch for the most expensive options?
Take FREE vserver

2) absolutely not clear why you compare and adds apples with potatoes ??? I mean you start talk here about hardware ...

3) You try prove that vserver infinity 1500$ is super expensive thing ??
What about OpenBase $2500-more, what about MS SQL Server 4000-8000$, what about Oracle $10K-12-...,
what about small only 450Kb size db special for banks, which starts at 120,000$

What about Report Servers, which start from 1500$?
Crystall Report server -- windows only -- 3000 for 5 connects, and 16,000 for 25 connects?

and Valentina Server with 5 connections -- is FREE.
and you complain?

4) You mention 99$ special of CubeSQL ?
okay its up that vendor.
There was time This server was attempted to be on sale at price 10,000$ -- remember guys?
And I know people which have pay that crazy money for this "SQLite-wrapper server".

But ... then remember also that already was 2 OmegaBundles where was include VServer Infinity for almost zero price... And a lots of developers from RB and LiveCode worlds have obtain that.


5) Postgre is perfect -- you like it -- use it exists year many other good and perfect ...
We often choose woman, cars and databases just because we like how they looks, how they behave.
If you do not see in Valentina nothing special -- its up to you, it is not for you.

6) Once again I want underline underline underline -- that for DEVELOPERs we have special prices located in the VDN section.
You may found there that VDN itself cost 599$ only. And now you can deploy even million servers/5 royalty free.
Having VDN, you get also special price to VServer Infinite. It is only 399$

Just you try prove us that CubeSQL INF at 600$ this is wow
So I show you that YOU AS DEVELOPER, can get VSERVER INF at $399 only,
IF some your users do not need INFINITE, and e.g. if 30 seats class-room is enough, then it can be even more cheap, e.g. 100$

Because again, if you are not DB professional, I doubt you develop for huge companies.
And small office do not need so much infinity connections, right?


7) Speed tests -- here few issues ... they take many time to make to be really correct without mistakes and noise.
IF we make tests against db1 always come people and say -- what about db2, db3, db4
Few years ago, BIG db vendors have made addition into their license, that you cannot do benches of their dbs.
Different tasks may have different gaps.... So in general you really need listen OTHER peoples


Believe you or not, but few times to us comes people, and say: even if Valentina will be x5 times faster, than we can keep x5 times less computers in our data center.
This save few $$$ on hardware, but also on place for that computers, and on electricity ...
So everybody count money according to his tasks

nice

I still cannot understand... You try to scare people to use Valentina?? Or you scary self so much?

Valentina has for years free open lists... We have free beta list, we do not close our bugs as do other companies.
We help to people usually for free.

Yes open source products claim to be free, and yes you can find some help ...
but also they claim they sale SUPPORT, not software.

This always scared me from open source -- because then this means they should be interested I have buy their support.
So lets scary each other?

You have never see how much cost support for mySQL
Go to their site and see -- 6000$ PER MONTH,
why talking about 50$ for Valentina ???? ))))


============
In serious,

Many, just many developers say that we -- Paradigma also must add to site support at 2000-5000$
because ... BIG companies want to see that, and pay that to make their managers sleep better


============
I think we should stop this thread, because we discuss well known things it seems.
And I do not understand what you try to prove here

????????????????????????????

you say this as Database professional ? or as NOT database professional?

For your info ... before made any big claims, it is good idea to read docs, try something ...

Valentina is able put same information into LESS disk space.
Valentina is able use LESS RAM than other dbs.
I will not explain why -- you can read docs.

Valentina beat row-based DBs in same RAM space. --- this is required condition of any bench -- SAME hardware.
Or you think that for Valentina benches we install 10 times more RAM??




I should test it for you? how fast boss? in 30 minutes?

You know what is RAM databases?
We did have report from user that Valentina on normal HDD, have beat one famous RAM-based database ...
Its hard to believe





You understanding is wrong here.

SSD speedups overall I/O speed, so affected is anything. Including columnar dbs

But SSD should be used very carefully with active DBs.
We have hear reports that SSD may freeze on even few minutes when do garbage collection.
They promise new SSD should not have this problem ... but can be bad surprise.

HTH...

J.Sh3ppard just got owned!

Its another tool we can use to deliver apps.
There is no need for the verbose replies and nitpicking.

Ruslan has stated his case very well (and is very responsive via email).

For those interested I will post my results later.

Hi Ruslan,

What's the difference between:
FREE Valentina Server /5 @ $0.00
and
5 Connections Server @ $299.99


If I wanted to connect to a Valentina Server /5 from both RealBasic and PHP (including designing and running reports) what would I need to purchase?