Real Software Forums

The forum for Real Studio and other Real Software products.
[ REAL Software Website | Board Index ]
It is currently Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:51 am
xojo

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:40 am
Posts: 12
My shared web host provider does not support FastCGI or one of the biggest out there, 1&1 (unless you go with a dedicated server). I'm not changing my provider any time soon.

Please briefly explain how the RB HTTP method works?

If you're web hosting on a Linux box, do you have to just compile the RB code only in Linux and upload it to the server?

What would one see if they viewed page source on a RB web browser page?

In the web IDE, instead of typing or pasting JavaScript (JS) code I assume you can reference external files? i.e. <script type="text/javascript" src="example.js"></script>

Also, will you support using RB IDE compile directives or constants in the IDE HTML input text window/area? i.e. To set a URL path like <script type="text/javascript" src="URL_CONSTANT/example.js"></script>

JS can manipulate the DOM, so will JS be able to manipulate any RB web page properties?

If there's an RB web app to submit like a HTML form, can we manipulate the submit button to disable it much like using JS so user can't click on the button again while form data is being processed?

I'm very excited about you bringing out RB web app. However, I hope the boss does't think this replaces the request of being able to code for the iPhone/iPad. This is still just an app running within the confines of the browser along with all the limitations.

I'm an enterprise user, but haven't used it much. This is renewing my desire to work more in RB. My day job is working in millions of lines of PHP/JS/AJAX/HTML/CSS code. What a relief it would be not to have to deal with all that and use more of RB. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:13 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
Exactly the kinds of questions I would expect from somebody who has done significant web development in the past. You're thinking too much like a web designer, not enough like a desktop designer. Your button disabling for example, you could do that in a line of code on the desktop right? It'll be the same on the web.

We've taken the desktop experience and put in a browser. To a web developer, this is kind of mind **** - I know, that is my very background. Throughout the development of this, Geoff would always push me to do things I told him was impossible. So try to think more as if you are designing a desktop app, and hopefully the concept will become more clear.

To answer your questions more specifically, you'll really want to find a FastCGI host. The included HTTP server does not have the proven reliability of Apache. We use it for local debugging, and it would be ideal for in-house apps. For real-world apps, FastCGI is pretty much the only way to go. We know most shared hosting plans don't support them, but we could not bring the requirements down any lower.

To deploy, you build for the server OS, upload, and configure your web server accordingly. The web server part is one area we are currently unable to make easier.

The source generated is minimal, the server only sends the minimum information to get started, then the JavaScript takes over and "fills in the blanks" so to speak.

The WebPageSource object can inject HTML directly into your pages. It is both powerful and dangerous, because you can do anything you want with it. With that in mind, yes you could reference external resources. However, we do absolutely no work with the content in the object, so no there is not constant replacing available.

The JS can modify values client-side, but would become out of sync with the server. The server is smart enough to only send changes, so using client-side JS to modify values would likely cause problems. We do have an object-oriented JavaScript API to do some things in a more "sanctioned" way, but more than likely you won't need to write custom JS.

As for native iOS, it is currently an impossibility. We'd love to make it happen, but Apple says no to third-party tools. So the web is what we can offer. Although initially the web framework will not be iOS-optimized (it'll work, just not specialized for iOS) we are keen to make that happen. Of course, no timetable for that.

_________________
Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:40 am
Posts: 12
Thanks for the info.

I guess that I won't be using your web app for a while since you have the FastCGI requirement. You might not want to mention the HTTP server as a feature on your site if it's not even viable in a production/live setting.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
I didn't say it isn't viable. Apache and IIS are well developed and proven web servers. They've been at it for a very long time and have lots of people working on them. Our built-in HTTP server does not have that luxury. It's pretty good, don't get me wrong, but if you have the ability to run an HTTP server, you almost certainly can run a FastCGI through your existing web server.

The HTTP server would absolutely work fine for small-scale apps, such as those created for in-house purposes. But wherever possible, you should utilize FastCGI because writing an HTTP server is not our primary business.

A Virtual Private Server can be had for around $40/mo and you can support FastCGI on that. I've heard that Dreamhost offers a package with the features necessary for around $25/mo. Considering that is what I'm paying now for my well-stocked shared account, $25 is a very good price.

I know you want to stick with your provider, so I can't offer any more recommendations. We tried to make it work using standard CGI, but the performance isn't good.

_________________
Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:53 am
Posts: 1002
Thom McGrath wrote:
The HTTP server would absolutely work fine for small-scale apps, such as those created for in-house purposes.


What do you consider small scale?

BTW in-house apps CAN be mission critical.

- karen


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
Small-scale and mission-critical are different. I have no doubts the built-in server could handle a dozen simultaneous users, testing shows it could be as much as 150. Depends entirely on what the app does.

_________________
Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:53 am
Posts: 1002
Thom McGrath wrote:
I have no doubts the built-in server could handle a dozen simultaneous users, testing shows it could be as much as 150. Depends entirely on what the app does.


The reason I am curious about the built in server is that i wrote few RB apps for use in my department (I was the manager) and another we worked closely with at my old employer that would have better if they had been web apps... I know the IT department would NEVER have allowed us to use their web servers for at least some of those uses... Being able to just stick an executable on low use Lab PC to act as server would have been the only way to do that...

I don't know if I'll ever have another job with both need and the discretion to do such things, but it's away to do things through the 'backdoor', that if successful can then grow.

- Karen


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
If you don't like shared hosting and are on a tight budget:

Mac OS X (including older versions on older used macs) comes with Apache and web serving capability. It's not the same as OS X server but for the money and to have your own unshared system it probably isn't bad unless you need to handle a lot of concurrent hits. Depending on what mac you got, I would guess it could probably handle a couple hundred or more concurrent hits.

From what I've been told, the serving speed mainly depends on the drive speed, assuming you've got decent bandwidth. CPU is not that important unless you've got a lot going on. That means even older macs make great servers.

If your need is 'in house' used tower macs are cheap.

If you can't host 'in house', I think you can host your own mac mini for about $30.00 a month.

I'm not sure why someone would pay $25.00 or more to be on a shared system or a VPN?


For my money I'd rather have my own mac server.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Sol:Planet Earth:North America:California
J.Sh3ppard wrote:
I'm not sure why someone would pay $25.00 or more to be on a shared system or a VPN?


As Thom mentioned, DreamHost does support FastCGI but to be clear they support it across the board on all accounts, shared or VPS. Shared accounts start at $120 a year (Or less if you have a referral code), with a domain, unlimited domain hosting, unlimited storage and unlimited bandwidth (so they say.) I have seen specials on holidays offering a year of hosting for $10. It may not be the fastest solution but for some applications it is perfectly fine. Just FYI for full transparency: I have mentioned DH a few times on the forums but only because I believe it a good solution for some. I don't work for them, although if you do use my referral code to save money I get a discount too, simple as that.

_________________
This message made with 100% recycled pixels.
MacBook CD2.0/2GB/OSX 10.6.8 / REAL Studio 2010R1 Pro


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
I'm saying $25.00 a month is a lot of money to be on a shared system.

Generally speaking why pay $25.00 per month to be sharing web hosting when for $30.00 a month you can have your own server and run all your own software without any limitations or those implied security risks that sharing creates?

I've found when companies claim unlimited stuff like bandwidth, CPU, etc. that it isn't true.

All of the shared hosting companies I've come across place user limits on each user and when you violate those limits you're in trouble. If your site or sites continue to violate those limits they disable the offending site. If you don't correct the problem they boot you off and tell you to pay more for a dedicated server -which they charge a lot for.

They often overload the servers with too many users (so they make more money) which is why they need to have limits which are far from unlimited anything.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Binary/HTTP and other related questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Sol:Planet Earth:North America:California
Yes I agree a lot of Unlimited hosting is not really unlimited. I have been a DH customer for more then 6 years and I have read all the hoopla about unlimited and it is unlimited, to a degree. Of course they likely have a TOS that prevents you from creating a video streaming site that locks up their servers. Or perhaps a warez site offering downloads to millions of people. But we are not talking about that with a legitimate web application.

But I agree with you and that was my point that $25 is too much to pay for shared hosting and that DH charges $120 a year or less for shared.

_________________
This message made with 100% recycled pixels.
MacBook CD2.0/2GB/OSX 10.6.8 / REAL Studio 2010R1 Pro


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group