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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:37 am 
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I think it's unwise to split the community into "common" users and "pro" users.

1. How does it look from a new user/customer standpoint?
- I'm locked out.
- I get only the blah-forum.
- Pro-discussions/informations cost a lot of money.

This will create for the vast majority of the community negative feelings. This can't be Xojo's target.


2. The advantage for Xojo?
Maybe getting a few more Pro-Licenses at the expense of degrading the community as a whole.
Questionable if that pays off.


3. Less work for Xojo?
If it's the plan to monitor only the Pro forum?



Making the IDE "free" is a great wise move. A paid "Pro" community forum contradicts this step.
It is no longer a friendly "come in and find out" invitation for new users. It adds an IF to the story.
IF you don't pay $1000 a year we threat you as a dummy. (to overstate the case)
IF you don't pay $1000 a year you can't fully participate.

I suggest to re-think this strategy. The community is what can help Xojo to grow, more than everything else.
Using a knife on the community might degrade the positive effects that comes from it.

If Xojo grows to a billion-users company the community-handling might be different. For now, I suggest to keep one of the most valuable assets that Xojo has, untouched.


Kind regards
Christian

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:19 am 
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Quote:
splitting the community into "common" users and "pro" users


Why is it always 5 steps forward and 2 steps backwards with Real Software. I mean they do something amazing (XOJO) and then come up with this Ludicrous forum idea. What the heck "lower class, middle class and upper class"

:(

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:24 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
I was concerned at first about a pro forum, mostly that it'd be a wealth of knowledge that I will miss out on. If it's available read only, then, great. But just because it's called pro doesn't mean it's the only place for cutting edge details and suggestions. I'd imagine there's a mix of skill level there as in the public one.

Even more, it now seems to me less like making a private section of the forums and more like extending their expert support service to include a forum. So I'm not losing anything, they're just adding to that expensive service they've always had, and throwing it in if you buy the top of the line license.

I can't log in yet but I like the look of the new forums https://forum.xojo.com/. This, the IDE, the docs and use of all features in standard it looks like a big gain.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:30 am 
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I may or may not get Pro (I don't really need web), but the tipping factor may be access to the new forum and higher priority for bug fixes. This has additional value.

I hope the Pro forum is readable by everyone, and I think it makes sense to do that. But to create a forum with less noise-to-signal for the benefit of users whose livelihoods may depend on Xojo? I see no problem with that and, in fact, think it's a great strategy.

What I envision is that the "pros" will ask each other questions in the Pro forum (for the benefit of everyone else who'll read it, I hope), but will continue to answer questions from those in the community without the same experience. I think this would benefit everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:32 am 
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I can feel a Delphi Forum coming on here :(

http://www.delphiforums.com/compareplans.ptt

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:48 am 
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I guess nobody else can help how you feel, but nothing like that has been proposed by Xojo. As near as I can tell, if you decide against pro, you lose nothing that you already have unless you consider other people's gain to be your loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:58 am 
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Thom McGrath wrote:
The new forum is where all new community interaction will happen.
<snip>
We have no announcements regarding the NUG.



I hope I am wrong but to me that implies the NUG will be no more.

We know you personally and Xojo inc would rather have the NUG gone... REAL tried shutting it down once already but backed off because of the complaints of a lot of long time users.

I I strongly prefer the NUG to a forum (this one or the new one)... I find the time efficiency,immediacy and the generation of an offline archive that Email provides to all be very valuable to me.

To me the direction Xojo Inc seems to be going, will likely dissipate a lot of what i thought made it special as a company and kept with RB though all the frustrations... <sigh>


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:04 am 
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ktekinay wrote:
I guess nobody else can help how you feel, but nothing like that has been proposed by Xojo. As near as I can tell, if you decide against pro, you lose nothing that you already have unless you consider other people's gain to be your loss.


That is not true. We lose the community as it has been, in a very important aspect IMO. That aspect is a big part of why I have been using RB/RS for 12 years and renewed until Feb 2018 before this announcement was made.

- Karen


Last edited by Karen on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:18 am 
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Karen wrote:
I hope I am wrong but to me that implies the NUG will be no more.

We know you personally and Xojo inc would rather have the NUG gone... REAL tried shutting it down once already but backed off because of the complaints of a lot of long time users.

I I strongly prefer the NUG to a forum (this one or the new one)... I find the time efficiency,immediacy and the generation of an offline archive that Email provides to all be very valuable to me.

To me the direction Xojo Inc seems to be going, will likely dissipate a lot of what i thought made it special as a company and kept with RB though all the frustrations... <sigh>

You know I've been a NUG member since I joined the community at version 3.5, right? And I only joined the forum in 2008 because it was part of my job to administer it. I prefer the NUG myself. I've said in the past that a forum is better for the company, since we can control it, but that doesn't change what I prefer to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 am 
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Quote:
I prefer the NUG myself
:wink: Me too!

Nug - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nug

1. A high quality bud of marijuana.
Thom packed his last nug into the bowl and smoked it on the way to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 am 
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Thom McGrath wrote:
You know I've been a NUG member since I joined the community at version 3.5, right?


I came in a bit before that, I know you were on the NUG but I did not remember when you got there.

Quote:
I've said in the past that a forum is better for the company, since we can control it, but that doesn't change what I prefer to use.


That is what i remembered... I'm sorry I thought it meant you preferred it.

IMO it is not so clear that a Forum is better for the company... Yes it gives more control but the intangibles that get lost have value to customers which helps to retain them.

I think that is why a number of things happening now, while they look good on paper business wise, will turn out to be non obvious negatives for the company in the long run.

- Karen


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:43 am 
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timhare wrote:
J.S, you have an uncanny ability for identifying the worst case scenario.


Which is something any good developer SHOULD be able to do..... Find the WORST CASE and insure that it is properly handled so it never becomes an issue. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:30 am 
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Karen wrote:
ktekinay wrote:
I guess nobody else can help how you feel, but nothing like that has been proposed by Xojo. As near as I can tell, if you decide against pro, you lose nothing that you already have unless you consider other people's gain to be your loss.


That is not true. We lose the community as it has been, in a very important aspect IMO. That aspect is a bug part of why I have been using RB/RS for 12 years and renewed until Feb 2018 before this announcement was made.

- Karen

I agree, but I don't see anything in the announcements that would change that. The community is moving (at least as far as the forum is concerned), not changing. And the NUG will remain because they haven't said anything to the contrary, even when I asked Geoff about it personally the other day. Anything else is paranoia at this stage.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:35 am 
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Quote:
I I strongly prefer the NUG to a forum (this one or the new one)... I find the time efficiency,immediacy and the generation of an offline archive that Email provides to all be very valuable to me.


Another view:
I get the NUG delivered as a digest.
Why dont people turn off quotation when replying by email?
You get a 3 word reply embedded inside a 600 word requote of all the previous comments.

Personally I much prefer the forum. When it works, the search lets you turn up related stuff from years ago (one worry I have about this forum being mothballed.. look how much useful stuff may be overlooked)
And replies posts don't usually include every word that went before, because its visible before you press Submit.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:02 am 
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ktekinay wrote:
Karen wrote:
ktekinay wrote:
I guess nobody else can help how you feel, but nothing like that has been proposed by Xojo. As near as I can tell, if you decide against pro, you lose nothing that you already have unless you consider other people's gain to be your loss.


That is not true. We lose the community as it has been, in a very important aspect IMO. That aspect is a bug part of why I have been using RB/RS for 12 years and renewed until Feb 2018 before this announcement was made.

- Karen

I agree, but I don't see anything in the announcements that would change that.


The Pro SUBSCRIBER only channel and only Pro SUBSCRIBERS will be guaranteed to be part of the beta program.

Those fundamentally change the nature of the community as fostered by Xojo Inc. The effects of changes may not be obvious at first but over time I believe (if they stand) they will be subtle but very significant.

If the community had been so stratified when I can in I believe I would never have learned as much as I have and been able to produce some of teh apps I have, and likely would not have been using the product for 12 years.

I don't believe I have overall been a distraction to the full-time developers and at times have even answered questions that helped some of them because of my experience with certain aspects of the product.

The lack of the hierarchy in the community for me has been an important feature, not a bug. Now it feels like that feature is becoming buggy.

- Karen


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