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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:39 pm 
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iOS is coming along - http://www.realsoftwareblog.com/2013/04 ... ynote.html
We demoed it at the conference running real apps in the simulator.
We know we still have work to do to make it so you can build an app for a device.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Kyan wrote:
If I am not mistaken, the move to being able to handle iOS in the future is requiring *a lot* of deep reprogramming and rewriting the IDE to fit on top of that was part of the deal. And since the IDE had to be rewritten, why not make it "nicer", too?
I'm sure this is true and if I recall from my Qt programming friend the Qt framework also had to be changed a fair amount to make adaptions for iOS /android.

But that's part of developing for iOS /business at the end of the day and as far as I know iOS is going to be an additional license? so the cost of development should be reflected in iOS licenses not anything else. With WE costing 400/200 i would not be surprise if iOS will be 200/100 with android to follow in 2015 for similar?

There is already android4linux using basic-like syntax available now for $35 whereas RS is going to be 5+ years behind, built probably from the capital expected to be put aside for RS desktop upgrades only to be sold as an additional license?

They've been beating iOS and 64bit for quite a while to keep users renewing (from my perspective), but this Xojo is making me want to start transitioning away now even after renewing recently.

Personally I'm not even bothered that they are charging for X, Y and Z - they could have split desktop build licenses into mac, linux and window for all I care and then the mac licensing would reflect the resources needed for mac /cocoa development. It's the fact they don't even seem to know what they are even doing themselves, becoming very vague and misleading and not even knowing answers about their own company and some what making it all up as they go along.

With all this hype built up (and due update delayed) I was expecting massive improvements, massive overhaul on the bugs, lots of code clean up and with the new IDE etc a new turning point for the entire tool set to be more modern and streamlined and instead, it's a new logo /site, xojo cloud and an IDE only because of iOS adaptions not because they wanted to improve the IDE and it appears to be alienating users perfectly as one would expect.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Jason_Adams wrote:
To my knowledge, I've heard of numerable extensions to customers' licenses who felt they'd been wronged.


So Real Software/Xojo is extending paid enterprise licenses for all this time where there haven't been any real (or even on-schedule) updates? Whom would one have to contact?


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Has anyone been able to test Xojo Beta with Ubuntu 13.04 ?


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:15 pm 
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sneezr wrote:
So Real Software/Xojo is extending paid enterprise licenses for all this time where there haven't been any real (or even on-schedule) updates? Whom would one have to contact?

I am in no way guaranteeing that Xojo Inc. will extend your license, but I can guarantee that they won't do anything if you don't speak with them directly for yourself. If you go to the website you can find a form for emailing them and a phone number to call. That's a good place to start.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:49 pm 
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lukus001 wrote:
I honestly expect iOS and 64bit desktop apps will be sold as additional licenses, and for me that'll probably be the cause of me leaving.


iOS will be an additional license... but i would bet my house on that NOT being the case for 64 bit.

- Karen


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:48 am 
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npalardy wrote:
64 bit will be the biggest deal for all OS's - and that's already on the plan for next year (the blogs point that out).
And OS X will need 64 bit as well.



64bit Next year! You must be kidding.

Not sure you mean this year ?


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:38 am 
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J.Hansen wrote:
npalardy wrote:
64 bit will be the biggest deal for all OS's - and that's already on the plan for next year (the blogs point that out).
And OS X will need 64 bit as well.



64bit Next year! You must be kidding.

Not sure you mean this year ?


Your not gonna believe this one: Windows and Linux 64 Bit support are already completed too, with Cocoa 64 Bit support 70% completed. In the "real world", companies don't announce features, and once they've finished them they don't just keep delaying even though they're FINISHED.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:35 am 
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lukus001 wrote:

I thought the complaints were more in line of wanting assurances that Xojo is going to adhere to decent bug fixes and updates since they've completely changed their business model and practices from the ground up in to a more product-milking process more focused on marketing and remarketing than producing a quality, up to date and cutting edge /modern product to create cross platform desktop apps.


Over the years I have evaluated real/basic/studio for various projects and have come to the conclusion that up until last year they were more focussed on releasing 4+ updates per year containing new functionality rather than knocking bugs on the head.

In the little bits I have used it for, it is slow and buggy.


lukus001 wrote:
iOS, 64 bit etc. are the things people are wanting, it's also the parts that are not yet being delivered and RS is heavily behind competition. AFAIK Qt will soon be fully cross platform including all the mobile platforms if not already and for free. There's a lot of talk about these nice features such as iOS but they are features no where near being released I can easily understand people getting upset and annoyed that this big update mostly revolves sub-ventures to expand their business with little to do with RS updates.

I honestly expect iOS and 64bit desktop apps will be sold as additional licenses, and for me that'll probably be the cause of me leaving.


We use Qt extensively and without doubt it runs rings around realstudio. However, I have yet to see a good release as the alpha release for Qt (ios/android) is only just recently out.

I have not found realstudio to be truly multi-platform. There have, in my tests, been multiple issues which require heavy customisation to get an application to run on Windows/Mac/Linux. Far too much for any serious consideration.

As a hobbyist-type programming language OR a one platform language, realstudio is obviously a good choice. They do a good job at making it ALMOST multi-platform, but it's still not close enough. (I have not seen the new software so it's possible I am now entirely wrong and they have nailed the multi-platform issues).


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:54 am 
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timehacker11 wrote:
Your not gonna believe this one: Windows and Linux 64 Bit support are already completed too, with Cocoa 64 Bit support 70% completed. In the "real world", companies don't announce features, and once they've finished them they don't just keep delaying even though they're FINISHED.

And as was already said, just because parts of our frameworks are complete or near-complete, doesn't mean the compiler or debugger is ready.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:59 am 
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Thom McGrath wrote:
And as was already said, just because parts of our frameworks are complete or near-complete, doesn't mean the compiler or debugger is ready.


Didn't you mean to switch to llvm/lldb? I remember reading this somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:02 am 
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sneezr wrote:
Thom McGrath wrote:
And as was already said, just because parts of our frameworks are complete or near-complete, doesn't mean the compiler or debugger is ready.


Didn't you mean to switch to llvm/lldb? I remember reading this somewhere.

Unless I'm mistaken, yes. I'm not the compiler guy, so I'm not certain of the specifics.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:02 am 
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sneezr wrote:
Thom McGrath wrote:
And as was already said, just because parts of our frameworks are complete or near-complete, doesn't mean the compiler or debugger is ready.


Didn't you mean to switch to llvm/lldb? I remember reading this somewhere.

That's part of the remaining work we need to do to target iOS and 64 bit

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:12 pm 
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I have not found realstudio to be truly multi-platform. There have, in my tests, been multiple issues which require heavy customisation to get an application to run on Windows/Mac/Linux. Far too much for any serious consideration.


Could you give an example? In projects where I've targeted Mac/Win or all three my use of platform specific code has been minimal or non-existent. That has been true for years.

As for slow and buggy...I do not feel that's an accurate description of either the IDE or compiled apps.

And though this touches on more posts then yours, I'm going to reiterate that it's frustrating as...heck that people complain about "too many bugs" in Real Studio when Cocoa, .NET, and (now that I've checked the count) Qt have bug lists which are comparable or larger. A quick search of unresolved Qt bugs yielded a list of over 10,000. It's also tiring to hear on one hand that Real only focuses on new features, but on the other that Xojo isn't good enough because besides the IDE Real focused on...fixing bugs.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Although a decision about whether to upgrade or not remains in the future I would say that Real Software in my opinion have been quite astute with their decision to release the IDE as a no-charge download separate from the compiler components.

We used Real Studio for a successful medium scale vertical market desktop app for internal use, did several medium scale desktop and web apps on spec and have a few smaller apps currently running in the field commercially. We were never able to a sufficient level of productivity with the system to justify further major development with it. The main issue always seemed to be the IDE.

From what I've seen of the new one, there's been some good thinking applied to it and if the design changes are matched by improvements in performance and stability, I'll definitely take another look at it.

The pricing changes announced seem to be quite reasonable in light of what I've got invested in this so far. If RS/Xojo inc are willing, as I understand is the case, to offer us upgrade pricing on the basis of an Enterprise license that's been lapsed for over a year, they're obviously serious about earning back our business and we'll take them seriously in turn.

I know there's a lot of frustration and anger in some quarters about some of the issues that have plagued this system and trust me, I feel that pain but there are also things about this system that to me are just brilliant. This has always been a system of great promise and I hope to see more of it in the future.

Regards,
BG

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