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 Post subject: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
What is the XOJO bug fix policy and version release schedule going to be?

Will XOJO be able to correctly read and compile RS 2010 - RS 2012 projects?


Regarding console/service apps :

Are there any differences between RS 2010 - RS 2012 console/service apps and a XOJO console/service app for any of the desktop platforms (Mac, Linux, and Windows)?


With the new XOJO Pro premium forum does that mean :

a. Less official support on this forum by RS staff?

b. This forum is going to be shut down?

http://www.realsoftwareblog.com/2013/04 ... o-pro.html

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:18 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Portland, OR
J.Sh3ppard wrote:
Will XOJO be able to correctly read and compile RS 2010 - RS 2012 projects?


I can answer this one for you with the statement that I have had no problems loading and building my projects.

Regarding the Pro forum I can only give you speculation. I expect with the IDE going free there will be a high signal to noise ratio in the forums and the Pro forum will be where the people who are serious enough to pay for that level of support get a place to ask each other questions without being drowned out.

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Windows: Win7 64bit sp1, Vista 32bit sp2, WinXP 32bit SP3
Linux: RH EL6
Mac: Died in 2011 and took 2 months to notice.

RealStudio: 2012r2


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 4931
Location: San Diego, CA
The problem I see with a "PRO" forum is you will begin to see a caste system forming.... and in at least 3 levels.

1) Those who will only use the "free ide" ... these will be the newbies for the most part....
2) Those of us who have no need to spend $1000, and can do everything necessary with the other levels (note the new "personal" level is quite a bit more than the current "personal" level)
3) Those of you who do have a need for that level

Personally I am in the 2nd bucket. I am a professional programmer/developer/analyst, but use RealStudio (Xojo) as a side to my 9 to 5 job (where I have no choice of tools, but use the "company standard").. But on the same side, I have asked many questions here, and probably answered even more...

Perhaps Xojo should rethink the forum..... as in make 3 forums... not two. one for each of the above levels.

If you don't have a license (make that NEVER had a license) you are in the "free forum"......
If you do (or ever have had) a license.. you are in the "standard forum"... (ie. this one)
If you have a PRO license you can access the Inner Sanctum

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Dave Sisemore
iMac I7[2012], OSX Mountain Lion 10.8.3 RB2012r2.1
Note : I am not interested in any solutions that involve custom Plug-ins of any kind


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:53 am
Posts: 1002
Bob Coleman wrote:
Regarding the Pro forum I can only give you speculation. I expect with the IDE going free there will be a high signal to noise ratio in the forums and the Pro forum will be where the people who are serious enough to pay for that level of support get a place to ask each other questions without being drowned out.


Well that could pretty much kill the community for people like me... I've been a REAL customer for 12 years and have at times had both Mac Pro an Win Pro licenses and went to Enterprise (converting the Mac Pro license) when it came out

But my enterprise subscription lapsed last summer. In February , given the announced new pricing structure and license conversions, as well as the fact my financial situation is not as secure as it once was, I renewed that old Win Pro License for 5 years to make sure I could afford to stay with the product...

In other words I have been a long time member of this community.. I have over time invested a lot of time and money into this even though I don't make a living coding. While I am not an IT professional, I am not exactly a beginner and I and have written apps (desktop and web) for use at work by more than just me, and not just in my department, (though on my own - not officially as part of my job)

If this segregation by license type, along with the effect of a free IDE, make the NUG and the forum "for the rest of us" high noise and/or often have me wanting to shout "READ THE MANUAL" (I don't swear ;) ) I will probably drift away from the community and Xojo altogether.

The high level that historically could be had on the NUG, and being in the beta program are two things that helped keep me excited about RB... It looks like unless I pay for a Xojo Pro license (which if I had not lost my last job I probably would have done), those important intangibles that helped keep me engaged may be soon gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:10 am
Posts: 1086
Location: Boiling Springs, SC
Yay we can openly discuss Xojo now :-)

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Matthew A. Combatti
Real Studio 2012 r1.2

Visit Xojo Developer's Spot!
Systems I Use:
Windows XP/Windows Vista/Windows Server 2008 r2/Windows 7/Windows 8
Mac OSX 10.5/Mac OSX 10.6/Mac OSX Server/Ubuntu/Debian/Suse/Red Hat/
Windows Server 2011/CentOS 5.4 /ReactOS/SimOS

~All Xojo Compatible~


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Hi guys.

Thanks for the replies.


My main concern is the bug fix policy and release schedule.
Hopefully we'll hear something from the Xojo crew soon.


I feel that having a separate fee based forum will probably hurt this forum and perhaps the community in general.

Question about the Pro fee based forum :

Will non paying members be able to at least read this forum?

If not how are we able to determine whether it's worth paying for or not?
Personally I doubt a fee based forum is worth the money nor the other 'Pro' packaged stuff.

What happens if I pay the Pro fee once, get access to the forum, then don't renew?
Do I lose access to the Pro forum?

I can already hear the complaints.

Is there going to also be a fee based mailing list too?

Are my customer support emails going to be taxed? Haha.

Dave my friend, I'm also in bucket # 2 :)

I won't be paying for the Xojo Pro forum anytime soon,
I guess you other forum freebie people are stuck with me !

Let's rename this forum to the :

XOJO Freebie Bottom Feeders forum

simulanics wrote:
Yay we can openly discuss Xojo now :-)


Yo Simulanics!
To me anything publicly accessible on the net is fair game :)

https://forum.xojo.com/conversations/all


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
I only have partial answers for you.

This forum will be shut down. We will keep it around for archival purposes, but it will be read-only. The new forum is where all new community interaction will happen. The new forums will not require additional user accounts, as they share their logins with our main website.

We have no announcements regarding the NUG.

The project file format has not changed, so you will not have any trouble loading older projects.

Our release schedule will be quarterly.

Console apps themselves will not change, but there are of course framework fixes and features in Xojo that are not in older releases. It is no different than going from 2011r2 to 2012r1.

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Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Thom McGrath wrote:
I only have partial answers for you.

This forum will be shut down. We will keep it around for archival purposes, but it will be read-only. The new forum is where all new community interaction will happen. The new forums will not require additional user accounts, as they share their logins with our main website.

We have no announcements regarding the NUG.

The project file format has not changed, so you will not have any trouble loading older projects.

Our release schedule will be quarterly.

Console apps themselves will not change, but there are of course framework fixes and features in Xojo that are not in older releases. It is no different than going from 2011r2 to 2012r1.


Hi Thom, thanks for the reply.

Thom McGrath wrote:
This forum will be shut down.

Wow, that sucks.
Thom McGrath wrote:
The new forum is where all new community interaction will happen.


Um, so there's only one Xojo forum and it's fee based?
Unbelievable.

Can non paying for forum access customers at least read the posts?

Thom McGrath wrote:

The new forum will not require additional user accounts, as they share their logins with our main website.


Ok, so what you're saying is:

The new IDE is free but paying customers don't care. Big wow a free IDE with no forum/community support system.

<sarcasm>
That's really a great way to build a new customer base especially with the level of documentation that we get.
</sarcasm>

The cost of products has gone up for serious users.
The current forum will be gone and now we have to pay to use the new Xojo forum or we have no forum.
The mailing list might disappear or also cost money.
Our current user accounts on here will no longer exist because we're going to have to use our Xojo customer account information which removes our privacy.

As a repeat paying customer and member of this community it doesn't sound too good to me.

I don't care about 'flash and glitter', I care about substance.

Sounds like a lot of nickel-and-diming to me.

What's next? My kidney?

I recant my 'I like it' post in the other thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
No, I never said the forums would be fee-based. The Xojo Pro members will simply have access to an additional channel on the new forums. I cannot confirm wether or not non-Pro members can read the Pro forums, because quite frankly I don't know. I'm not sure that has been decided.

The new forums will be available to every customer. The Xojo Pro channel within the new forums will be limited in some fashion.

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Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Thom McGrath wrote:
No, I never said the forums would be fee-based.


Thom McGrath wrote:
The new forum is where all new community interaction will happen.


From what you wrote it was my understanding there is only to be one forum, the pro forum which is fee based.

Thom McGrath wrote:
The Xojo Pro members will simply have access to an additional channel on the new forums. I cannot confirm wether or not non-Pro members can read the Pro forums, because quite frankly I don't know. I'm not sure that has been decided.

The new forums will be available to every customer. The Xojo Pro channel within the new forums will be limited in some fashion.


Ok that's a little bit better, thanks for clearing that up.

Now what about our usernames?

I'm sure a lot of customers don't want their real identities spread all over the net for many different reasons.

I can see that making a lot of people not wanting to contribute to forums or ask questions.


I will give you an example, I belong to a small private group forum of about 120 traders. One requirement was that we all use our real names (and pictures) which was not a problem since we're all kind of net trading buddies. Then the few running the forum want to make money by selling forum memberships along with the trading lessons we discuss. That of course exposes all of our names and information we've shared with each other to anyone on the internet who pays and joins. Not cool.

This is a trading forum that means people have money at stake and easily become targets.

How is the new XOJO forum going to protect our identities if it's based off of the REAL user accounts?

As you know your site is probably not that hard to break into so what's protecting our identities?


Last edited by J.Sh3ppard on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: NotEvenOnTheMap, CT
Well, participation is not mandatory, and we of course can't know if you're using an alias of some kind.

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Thom McGrath - @tekcor
Web Framework Architect, Real Software, Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:44 pm
Posts: 673
Thom McGrath wrote:
Well, participation is not mandatory,


Customers won't be forced to use the forums that may be true but honestly if you really want to use the product you're likely to use some form of community support be it forum or mailing list.

Thom McGrath wrote:
and we of course can't know if you're using an alias of some kind.


Ah, I think I understand.

Customers that have existing accounts can also sign up with new names if they want as well as people using the IDE for free get access to the non Pro forum.

Ok that's a little better I guess.

I still think it might be splitting hairs for the Xojo support between the Pro paid forum and the non paid forum.

If certain non paid questions pop up are you guys not going answer them because you'll consider them a 'Pro' question?

Are you going to be telling Pro forum customers to not answer non Pro customer's questions if those answers are similar to what's in the Pro forum?

What is criteria for answering or not answering a non paid forum member's questions?

"Sorry, you gotta pay a grand for that answer."

It seems sticky to me.


I had another bad thought about the fee based Pro forum.
If Xojo is charging money to access the Pro forum then Xojo employees must be spending significant time there. That means less time spent on development and bug fixing :(


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:47 am
Posts: 130
Location: Melbourne, Australia
J.Sh3ppard wrote:
Customers that have existing accounts can also sign up with new names if they want as well as people using the IDE for free get access to the non Pro forum.

Ok that's a little better I guess.


I can't check at the moment but I'm sure as a licence holder I can change my RS Account username. Which is the name I would prefer anyway.

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Steve
rs2012 r2.1 Windows 7.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:44 am
Posts: 583
Thom McGrath wrote:
No, I never said the forums would be fee-based. The Xojo Pro members will simply have access to an additional channel on the new forums. I cannot confirm wether or not non-Pro members can read the Pro forums, because quite frankly I don't know. I'm not sure that has been decided.

The new forums will be available to every customer. The Xojo Pro channel within the new forums will be limited in some fashion.


If the pro channel is limited where only Pro accounts can post, but everyone else can read, then I'd have no problem with that at all.

At any rate, I am wiling to bet Xojo will be open to modifying things as time goes on. With the IDE being free now, it certainly seems like they are hoping for a big boom in user base and that puts a dose of uncertaintly into the future.

If they really really do some great marketing, people might jump on board and there could be all kinds of independent user forums.

So, I can see where they'd want something of a quiet, professional sanctuary for Pro users. That said, I really do hope they make it avaiable to read for all. The more knowledge people have the more they'll get out of the product and the more they get out of the product, the better the word-of-mouth is going to be on the street.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:21 pm
Posts: 12388
Location: Portland, OR USA
J.S, you have an uncanny ability for identifying the worst case scenario.


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