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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:41 pm
Posts: 37
Bob Coleman wrote:
Wait a month and you will have them. :)


LOL... Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:43 pm
Posts: 427
p0wn3d wrote:
Likewise I am very interested in your affiliation with RS. How about you enlighten us all on that first please :D


I am only related to RB by using RB (Xojo).


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:09 pm
Posts: 650
Location: Tennessee, USA
One of the great things about the NUG Digest versus the forums is that in the digest you can write rules to exclude postings from people who have nothing of value to contribute. Were this thread taking place on the Digest there are definitely a couple of rules that would have been written.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:54 pm
Posts: 484
Location: London, England
If the new name and forum has caused this many bad feelings between members already - I hate to think what things will be like when the new effects actually take place :(

Emotions seem to be starting to run wild, and it will be a shame if members begin to seperate into "sides" (Xojo fans against non Xojo fans).

As for me - I will continue to stroll along, making my small apps, as Xojo is fine for me at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:43 pm
Posts: 427
RicSum wrote:
If the new name and forum has caused this many bad feelings between members already - I hate to think what things will be like when the new effects actually take place :(


If you read this thread carefully you will noticed it are about 2-3 persons who are very negative about Xojo and both are not even beta testers so they didn't even used it. Nuff said.

Look, there are and always will be people who like to shoot at everything that moves. Those people will never be satisfied with anything they get their hands on. Does this mean they are right and everyone should walk the same path? I hope not..

My two cents: Xojo is not perfect and I doubt it ever will, just like any other software I used in my +30 years of computing history. You just learn to live with it. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:59 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Arizona, USA
RicSum wrote:
If the new name and forum has caused this many bad feelings between members already - I hate to think what things will be like when the new effects actually take place :(


Those are my views as well. I am in that grey area where not everything is rosy and not everything is dark, things are just good enough. But I truly hope these sentiments are not carried over after the transition because this taking sides business is not constructive one bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 4931
Location: San Diego, CA
I am really really confused by the reactions here.

1) The syntax of the language has not changed (or at least not significantly)..... except for some new features (maybe??)
2) The name changed. SO WHAT. Does the name really matter to YOU? from a marketing perspective it might matter to Xojo Inc. but to YOU, the developer... it is the name of a tool... Hammer, Saw, Xojo.... it has no affect on how you use it.
3) New IDE... Better? maybe better, maybe not... But do YOU really know (not talking about the beta testers here, but everyone else who seems to be complaining about something they have not even touched, let alone seen)
4) More stable COCOA... Hey so you use Windows (I can't help you with that problem, but quit complaining the Xojo is working on the framework transistion for OSX users.... we are just as worthy a customer as the rest of you)
5) Pricing Change. Good for some of us... maybe not so good for others. You have two choices... Chalk it up to the cost of doing business (or an investment in your hobby)..... or don't

Personally I think when the dust settles, the entire Xojo customer base will be better off. If these changes will encourage more new customers, depends on Marketing..... and marketing NOT aimed at current customers... but at people who need a developement tool, and choose Visual Studio because its the only one they heard of.

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iMac I7[2012], OSX Mountain Lion 10.8.3 RB2012r2.1
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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:54 pm
Posts: 484
Location: London, England
Exactly.

I am totally neutral at the moment, as Real Studio / Xojo fits my needs and does everything I need it to.
I don't expect it to be perfect, and therefore, it makes sense to wait and see what happens.

Xojo Inc. will simply need to strike a balance between concentrating on fixing long standing bugs, and implementing new features; as some of the negative comments seem to be from people who are unhappy with new features given priority over bugs fixes.

I can understand their frustration, so I think the solution would be 50/50 priority.
That way, both new and old customers are kept happy.

No company can keep EVERYBODY satisfied ALL of the time, so a happy medium is necessary.
I am sure if a list of long standing bugs was issued to Xojo - along with a polite request to try to resolve them - they would listen and then a win / win situation would present itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:43 pm
Posts: 427
DaveS wrote:
1) The syntax of the language has not changed (or at least not significantly)..... except for some new features (maybe??)
2) The name changed. SO WHAT. Does the name really matter to YOU? from a marketing perspective it might matter to Xojo Inc. but to YOU, the developer... it is the name of a tool... Hammer, Saw, Xojo.... it has no affect on how you use it.
3) New IDE... Better? maybe better, maybe not... But do YOU really know (not talking about the beta testers here, but everyone else who seems to be complaining about something they have not even touched, let alone seen)
4) More stable COCOA... Hey so you use Windows (I can't help you with that problem, but quit complaining the Xojo is working on the framework transistion for OSX users.... we are just as worthy a customer as the rest of you)
5) Pricing Change. Good for some of us... maybe not so good for others. You have two choices... Chalk it up to the cost of doing business (or an investment in your hobby)..... or don't


Exactly, there is no reason to be mad, angry, unsatisfied, disappointed, ..
Xojo is RB with a new IDE and very good Cocoa support. Nothing more, nothing less (for now).


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:41 pm
Posts: 37
Yes, another question about Xojo: This time regarding the navigator.

I would love to be able to add multiple projects to one solution; is this or will this ever be possible with Xojo?

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:53 am
Posts: 1002
DaveS wrote:
3) New IDE... Better? maybe better, maybe not... But do YOU really know (not talking about the beta testers here, but everyone else who seems to be complaining about something they have not even touched, let alone seen)


i will say that even among those that have used it, the new IDE tends to elicit strong opinions. It IS significantly different.

Quote:
4) More stable COCOA...

Definitely.

Quote:
5) Pricing Change. Good for some of us... maybe not so good for others.


Worked out better for me... while I have made a FEW dollars with RS, I am primarily a hobbyist who creates some apps for my job as work on my own time and my own license.

I had an Enterprise subscription that I got when I was in better shape financially. The flexibility the new pricing gives me is much appreciated... I would have had a hard time justifying maintaining an Enterprise subscription in my current circumstances.

- Karen


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:26 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 565
Location: Emsworth, UK
atarikid wrote:
msssltd wrote:
The way RS has behaved recently, would probably be illegal in most European countries. Put another way, were RS a UK company, I would have no hesitation in suing for the cost of my Enterprise upgrade, through our small claims court.


What exactly is illegal that RB did??


Last February RS advertised a discount on Enterprise Edition, which I signed up to. The advertising for Enterprise Edition states the product includes 12 months entitlement to updates. In the small print of the offer, the update entitlement was reduced to 6 months. Shortly afterwards, RS abandoned the quarterly release cycle.

Based on the advertising, at the time of purchase I could reasonably expect to receive 2 to 4 updates . I ended up with just the one. I think it's enough to prove a bait and switch took place, and a couple solicitors I know agree.

To rub salt in the wound, the update I got (2012R1), has some serious regression issues in the network classes, making it as useful to me as a chocolate teapot.

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:35 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:10 pm
Posts: 1855
Location: Michigan, USA
msssltd:

Have you raised this issue with Xojo Inc. in these terms? If you feel that strongly about it, I'd inform them directly. To my knowledge, I've heard of numerable extensions to customers' licenses who felt they'd been wronged. For those I've spoken with at Xojo Inc., I've never had the impression that they're trying to upset anyone, but are trying to create a great product with satisfied customers; if someone gets upset in the meantime, they do what they can for those who approach them personally. Justified as you may be, ranting here won't do anyone any good.

(I realize you're just answering a question, but I wanted to make sure you're getting results as well. :))

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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:45 pm
Posts: 76
DaveS wrote:
I am really really confused by the reactions here.

1) The syntax of the language has not changed (or at least not significantly)..... except for some new features (maybe??)
2) The name changed. SO WHAT. Does the name really matter to YOU? from a marketing perspective it might matter to Xojo Inc. but to YOU, the developer... it is the name of a tool... Hammer, Saw, Xojo.... it has no affect on how you use it.
3) New IDE... Better? maybe better, maybe not... But do YOU really know (not talking about the beta testers here, but everyone else who seems to be complaining about something they have not even touched, let alone seen)
4) More stable COCOA... Hey so you use Windows (I can't help you with that problem, but quit complaining the Xojo is working on the framework transistion for OSX users.... we are just as worthy a customer as the rest of you)
5) Pricing Change. Good for some of us... maybe not so good for others. You have two choices... Chalk it up to the cost of doing business (or an investment in your hobby)..... or don't


I thought the complaints were more in line of wanting assurances that Xojo is going to adhere to decent bug fixes and updates since they've completely changed their business model and practices from the ground up in to a more product-milking process more focused on marketing and remarketing than producing a quality, up to date and cutting edge /modern product to create cross platform desktop apps.

I personally was happy with the name Real Studio, and I will be very unhappy if Xojo hasn't expanded on the product /code front (simply put, I will stop renewing and find a replacement instantly)

So far all I've seen (after much hype of the update):

* A strange re-pricing structure that despite originally being marketed as cross-platform seems aimed towards putting IOS and later android development as additional /extra costs among other code-aspects that should probably be inclusive instead of milked, even though a lot of people have probably been renewing their licenses for such code development with expectations of it being included.

* The most disappointing part to me is actually charging for console apps on top of desktop licenses; to me the console is great if someone doesn't want to create GUI desktop apps and the price should reflect that (after all, GUI parts are where the bulk of the IDE and cross-development has probably gone in & in terms of cross development, everything else is down to the programmer with declares or custom classes) so I don't see how owning a desktop license can warrant an additional cost for consoles when the console is the same product with less?

* xojo cloud, these are things i find slightly distasteful. Cloud hosting is hosting at the end of the day and has nothing to do with what I've been buying or what my promised updates should be related to especially if that incurs an additional fee. It is a sub project for the company and shouldn't be included as part of the long await RS update that people technically have paid for as part of our license agreement and seeing as though they owned rsappcloud.com have no reason to have held back on releasing it inline with xojo since it should be unrelated to app updates.

* new IDE is good and all, but the old one wasn't particularly bad and certainly was in need of better maintenance and bug fixing and only needed a few QoL changes to keep it modern rather than to neglect it and have to start over. If this has been a prime focus of development when it only needed regular maintenance and the code front has been neglected I will be pretty disappointed.

I've yet to see anything solid other than simple marketing to suggest the last year as been mostly spent in to making the IDE free to attract customers and then milk every aspect that can be once their hooked or made an app and then need to release it - no one is going to make an app on a free IDE and then decide "nope, gonna recode it with another language". I'm honestly expecting them to be moving away from code updates and actually selling more adaptions via plugins /licenses.

iOS, 64 bit etc. are the things people are wanting, it's also the parts that are not yet being delivered and RS is heavily behind competition. AFAIK Qt will soon be fully cross platform including all the mobile platforms if not already and for free. There's a lot of talk about these nice features such as iOS but they are features no where near being released I can easily understand people getting upset and annoyed that this big update mostly revolves sub-ventures to expand their business with little to do with RS updates.

I honestly expect iOS and 64bit desktop apps will be sold as additional licenses, and for me that'll probably be the cause of me leaving.


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 Post subject: Re: Important XOJO questions.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:44 am
Posts: 583
lukus001 wrote:
* new IDE is good and all, but the old one wasn't particularly bad and certainly was in need of better maintenance and bug fixing and only needed a few QoL changes to keep it modern rather than to neglect it and have to start over.

... <snip> ...

OS, 64 bit etc. are the things people are wanting, it's also the parts that are not yet being delivered and RS is heavily behind competition.



If I am not mistaken, the move to being able to handle iOS in the future is requiring *a lot* of deep reprogramming and rewriting the IDE to fit on top of that was part of the deal. And since the IDE had to be rewritten, why not make it "nicer", too?

So, depite some people only seeing the "nicer-but-I-don't-really-need-nicer" IDE, The RS/Xojo engineers have done a ton of work aimed at 64 and iOS. As I see it, the new IDE will be icing on the cake (though I expect it will have it's growing pains, too, of course.)

That said, as far as iOS goes, a while back I thought "Ok, gonna have to learn Obj-C, etc. and then word came out that Xojo was going to support that and I thought "Great, I can put those books down" and THEN it turns out this might only be coming in 2014, so I'm back at "Ok, let me take a look at those books anyhow".

Chances are, I'll have learned enough Objective-C a year from now to not need Xojo for that. Such is life, I suppose. I will keep using it for my main desktop programs however.


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